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Post by wisskidz on May 9, 2014 9:02:12 GMT -6
Everyone here knows me. David Wiss.. When I bought Kidwell a few years back Kidprint USA was Chucks pride and joy for kids. We are trying to revive the National Touring part of it. We try to update the rules to keep it affordable and easy to tech. I write the Jr Sprint (car) side of the rules and George Scheer wrote the engine side of the rules. I was not aware he added the different fuels to his side of the rules. I should of read closer. Sorry for that !!
I am really wanting to grow this traveling side of Kidsprint USA. The fuel and now oil rules are going to have to be addressed. I know tracks have different rules the racers families would like to see. I have several tracks asking how we can slow the Jr Sprints down and then the others say they want them opened up. I have been racing with the open Jr Sprints..(up to $5000 engines on a Jr). They are quite a bit faster to say the least and making begginers a real danger.
I have no plans of making the 2015 Engine Rules any different except leaving out the fuel and oil options rule.. They will be moved over to the Junior Sprint Bullet Point Rules.
The goal of the rules are
1) Keep the rules easy to enforce
2) Keep the cars CHEAP as possible.
3) Keep the class easy for beginners to learn.
I want some ideas for a fuel rule. I understand Sunoco Purple is getting hard to come by so short of making you buy fuel at the track what should we do? I only want ideas.
Thanks
Dave |
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Post by Rodney on May 9, 2014 14:20:01 GMT -6
I agree Dave. The class here has grown to be a fine group. What was your intent on fuel?
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sph89
New Member
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Post by sph89 on May 9, 2014 16:55:07 GMT -6
The class is growing which is great.
As for a suggestion...SSMC has a fuel rule. It cannot be changed without a rule proposal submission and approval. keep it simple...Sunoco Purple.
Not sure what your source of info is regarding Sunoco Purple shortage. I spoke with Day Automotive who said they have never had issue getting it and not been advised of any changes to distribution. I called Sunoco Race Fuels in PA and asked if they were having any shortages or distribution issues and they confirmed that there are no issues nor do they have any plans to change production levels. If you have info contrary to this it would important for us to all know the facts so that in the event we do have a fuel shortage problem we can be prepared with a game plan. The Kid Sprint fuel rule is ridiculous for tech...
I like your 3 goals. This is in line with most conventional thinking about the class. There are a few who are letting it get out of control with the open motors.
Adding more speed to the Jr.'s; no way in hell. It is not safe for the new drivers who drive out of their mind and out of control or are slower while building confidence and car handling skill. It is not safe for the experienced drivers who are dealing with the new drivers who are out of control or are slower while learning. This will only serve to drive away the new developing drivers which would be counterproductive to your efforts.
Shawn Hulsey
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Post by Jason White on May 9, 2014 21:29:34 GMT -6
The only way to fix the fuel rule to where YOU know we are all running Sunoco Purple is to offer it at the track for sale. Someone buy a drum, have it there and make the parents buy it at the track. The VP 110 Purple is not that far off of the Sunoco. Will still test within -5/5 of the rule. I could show up with VP 110 Purple and you test it and it will be darn near the same as Sunoco Purple. Looks the same, and it it performs the same. In my eyes, it is easier to get the VP 110 Locally than it is to get the Sunoco. Huey has it on the Missouri side..Great, who has it on the Kansas Side?? Everyone I know over here sells the VP Fuel.
Do as you all wish with the rules, we will conform to whatever, but these two fuels should be the only allowed in that class.
Jason White
Landen White Motorsports #5L
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Post by mokanracing on May 11, 2014 20:17:42 GMT -6
The only solution is to consistently tech the fuel as stated in the rules is with a digitron fuel tester. We fight this all the time at the kart races and the only way to catch them is to do as we have the last two weeks, test them after they cross the scales. Additives are available to pour in once you buy the fuel at the track so having a barrel at the track still doesn't fix the issue if we have someone who is trying to cheat. Just wanted to throw that out there
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Post by Jason White on May 13, 2014 1:58:33 GMT -6
Totally Agree!
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Post by Administrator on May 13, 2014 11:47:23 GMT -6
Looks like the Jr class has some items to work through. Forward a link to this forum to all Jr parents so that they too can voice their opinions as to how to get rules consistent.
Admin
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Post by Jr Fan on Jun 4, 2014 0:03:41 GMT -6
You get the rules consistent by making everyone conform to what is set. The rules not are up to the parents. The Board sets the rules, the parents just follow them (Hopefully)
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Post by slidensideways on Jun 4, 2014 11:47:27 GMT -6
The board doesn't know how to follow their own rules, how can they create or enforce?
It is the parents and the other club members who decide the rules not the board.
The parents don't follow the rule. They only follow the ones they like. The other ones they don't like, well they ignore those. That is why we have so many cheaters.
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Post by Jason White on Jun 5, 2014 1:40:33 GMT -6
Anyone any day can come look at my kids car, tear it down, do what they want....You will not find a single thing on that car that is illegal!
We don't write the rules..We get to submit rules proposals each year, but not all rules are written by the parents.
Jason White
5L Jr Sprint
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Post by wisskidz on Jun 5, 2014 19:57:08 GMT -6
I only want suggestions not more complaining on this. My concern is how to make the rules easy to enforce and follow. There is a protest rule and any racer can do that if they feel that strongly that someone is cheating. I would like to see someone do it myself that is one reason the protest fee is so cheap. I have been involved in a lot of motorsports and I have rarely seen anyone torn down but alot of whining going on.. I have also been around that if you whine and cry that someone is cheating and dont protest, you are asked to leave because you are a part of the problem not the solution.
Lets come up with Solutions
Thanks
Dave
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Post by sooner42 on Jun 5, 2014 20:41:24 GMT -6
It's pretty sad you guys are having to talk about this but it is racing and people are going to cheat,parents are only cheating their kids and giving them a false idea of they're true talents when they do this. When fuel is checked at Port it's as soon as they pull off the track as it should be at any track in my opinion.
Dave you have been lucky apparently we have had to take our motor home in zip lock bags several times.
Brent Mercer
Mercer Racing
Jr 42
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Post by Jason White on Jul 21, 2014 6:58:16 GMT -6
One rule that needs written out BETTER to keep the integrity of the Class on the up and up is the Protest Rule. The rule now says "23. Engine protest Rule. There will be a $150.00 engine protest rule on the first three finishers. If your engine is the one being protested, your
engine will be removed and kept by the track official at the conclusion of the feature. That engine can be torn down on-site by a qualified person or
will be delivered to Fairfield Motorsports by a track official or mutually agreeable party on the following Monday to be torn down and researched for
legality based on the current posted “KidSprint” engine rules. The person or persons that are protesting that engine and the engine owner have the
option to be present to witness the tech procedure. This engine, if found legal will be reassembled and back to the owner in time to race the
following week.
If the person being protested was found illegal then the person that made the protest will get their $150.00 back. If the person being protested was
found legal then they get the $150.00 (Engine Tech/Reassembly costs are the responsibility of the engine owner). All protests must be presented to
the referee in writing within 30 minutes of the completion of the last race. Any appeals must be handled by the Board of Directors"
The rules do not clearly state what happens if a Protest is refused. Also, why are we taking our engines to the one builder who builds 85% of the WF's running in the class? So if a guy NOT running a Fairfield motor protest a guy with one, and they can't come to a agreement on where to take it, (Because why would the NON-Fairfield Guy want to have Fairfield check and tear down his own motor) then what happens? No motor builder will DQ is own motor, Illegal or not. The rule needs to be clear cut on what will happen if a protest is denied, and also we need to list at least 2 other Builders who would will willing to tear one down if need be. Troy at Russell I know is willing to do it, and I am sure Scott Racing or another local builder would help also. There need to be options here or people will keep showing up with these big motors, slap a FMS sticker on it and in their mind know they will not be protested due to the fact that they know anyone in their right mind WILL NOT PROTEST just because the motor says that on it, and they are the only builder in the rules that the motor will go to. It is the biggest Grey area in the JR Rules.
Two other things that need addressed:
Min Weight needs raised to 430-450. Some kids are bigger than others. With the age group of this class (6-13) No incoming 6 year old is going to weight as much as a 13 year old. Even the playing field on car weight by making everyone be around the same weight. We come across the scales at 406 with a full tank of fuel with a 50lb driver...Some kids don't weight 50lbs at the higher age. I know a few drivers who have quit die to this.
Last rule......NO ADJUSTABLE SHOCKS! Keep it CHEAP! We already pay to much for the shocks not...No sense in letting someone race a $350 shock on a Jr!
Jason White
LMW jR Sprint
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Post by Rodney on Jul 21, 2014 15:57:52 GMT -6
If Fairfield is not an option I have been told the the track tech man is next option as far as refusal it is covered in the rules. $250 fine , loss of all points to date fine must be paid before offender is allowed to participate again. Hope that is of some help.
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Post by Jason White on Jul 21, 2014 17:28:21 GMT -6
Rodney..That is what should happen, but can our tech guy now tear one down and know what he is looking at? I don't think Willy can. This post was brought up by Dave for Next year rules. I can't find in the rules where it CLEARLY says you are fined and lose points for refusal of protest. All I see is 23.A...
23.A. Penalties for anyone caught cheating (motor, fuel, ignitions, or performance) will be as follows:
1st offense: $250 fine and loss of all points for the season up to that day.
2nd offense: $500 fine and loss of all points for the season up to that day.
3rd offense: $1000 fine and loss of all points for the season up to that day.
If the fine is not paid then that driver and/or owner cannot come back and run in any class at SSMSC until the fine is paid.
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Post by wisskidz on Jul 22, 2014 12:27:38 GMT -6
Jason the protest or rufusal is covered at Sweet Springs under the General Rules www.sweetspringsraceway.com/downloads/2010/fi2010_2881.pdfLook down around sub-heading J The weight will probably be raised but the problem is going to be other builders are putting carbon-fiber, titanium and other composites on their cars already.. The rules dont allow it but hey if it works. Unfortunatly adjustable shocks are already being put on cars by other builders.. People with money will always do what it takes to try to win.. It's in every sport. I would like to see an engine claim rule and maybe even a shock claim. If the parents are wanting to play rough then lets use the rules other associations have.. I watched a $2500 set of shocks get claimed the other weekend for $250. guess what the guy gave them up no sweat and had a new set on the next week. Since there is no Kid Sprint touring series to make the rules have a little more meaning it is tough to have track not give to pressure of the local people even though it prices alot of good kids out of racing. I am listening and will come up with what I think is a good set of rules but it is up to the racers to get active and see that the rules get followed.. |
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Post by wisskidz on Sept 30, 2014 14:33:27 GMT -6
I am going over the rules for Kid Sprint in the next two weeks. The only feed back I have been hearing is we need to raise the weight rule to 425# with driver. I would like to add the weight must be clamped or bolted to the frame.
The other idea I heard was take the monetary fine out of Dq's. Then have you loose points and have a suspension follow it.
I am working with Hoosier to put a durometer number back in the tire rules.
I am talking to engine builders to try to figure out a better way on the engine tech too.
I have also had several people ask about adjustable shocks. I would prefer to say no adjustable shocks- The feedback has been about 50/50.
at minimum it will be no driver adjustable shocks. give me feedback on this.
I am willing to listen and get opinions. I would also like to have the 2015 rules out by Mid October
Thanks
Dave
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Post by wisskidz on Sept 30, 2014 14:43:17 GMT -6
I would like to add Hoosier recommends leaving the right rear tire as sold to make the tire hardness testing easier to enforce. I realize several people say that is just to sell more tires but look at how you test tires for hardness.
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Post by Mike Cromwell on Sept 30, 2014 19:16:52 GMT -6
I can understand the weight and dont disagree with that as we all roll across at at least 410 now from what I have seen. My boys are both 425 in the car with no lead
As far as the adjustable shocks I feel we need to allow them. There is no advantage to not allowing them. Several cars already have them first off, secondly it saves you from having to carry multiple shocks to make adjustments. I totally agree with no cockpit adjustments. Having adjustable shocks saved me a ton of money traveling this year. I am able to tune my shocks between a high banked track and a flat track without owning several sets of shocks which in turn saved me money. They are allowed everywhere else I know of and will be allowed at US 50. There is no reason to handicap our club with a rule that does not match others...it just keeps others from racing with us from outside tracks.
There needs to be a strong push for consistent weekly tech. I DO FEEL WILLY is 100% capable. I have known willy for my entire life and he has always been a completely stand up guy who is very sharp. Yes he made a mistake this year but he also caught it and fixed it while admitting he was wrong. He is honest and unbiased and you cant ask for much more.
Mike Cromwell
Owner/Operator US 50 Motorsports Park
Club Member SSMC
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Post by Battles racing on Oct 1, 2014 11:15:59 GMT -6
I say leave the weight rule at 400. Why change it when we were running it my driver was 90-115# and was still at 405 full of fuel. Need to look at the engine rules more than anything I build some and there getting stupid on price before I spent 2200 on a briggs I would go run a 600 thats what we decided to do. Feel free to call me 918-955-4056
Kevin Battles
KBR engines
Pcr tech
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Post by Trevor Howard on Oct 1, 2014 20:30:15 GMT -6
I agree with with Kevin. Why would you add more weight to a junior sprint. The Tulsa shoot out and all other tracks that I know of run 400 and have successfully for many years. Why 425 vs 435 or 450. I am not sure I see the reasoning it is not for safety. Is it to help give an advantage to the heavier kids and pentalize the lighter kids. Is it to slow the cars down.
I am not sure it makes sense to add 30-60 pounds of weight of all different shapes and sizes to a car. If it 425 then I would believe cars would come in on average at 435.
My suggestion would be to have a conversation with the other junior builders and get some input. Maybe even have a group of junior moms and dads around the country for a focus group for feedback on rule changes Just some thoughts
Trevor 913-484-7424
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Post by wisskidz on Oct 2, 2014 7:26:18 GMT -6
I have talked with some other engine builders on the engine rules.. The problem around the U.S. seems to be Tech.. The rules have nothing to do with getting someone at the track to Tech, they give the track a baseline to enforce. I agree engine costs are out of hand considering the rules are based around the Briggs Specs. There are tracks wanting to slow cars down while others want to speed them up and others are happy.
Then the other creative people come into play. doping tires, tampering with the fuel, oil, even heard of putting nitrous oxide in the frame tube for if they need to pass that last car. I have had several people say there should be a lifetime suspension for certain severe rules violation (it includes engine builders). Is that an answer?
Without making everyone buy a sealed engine what is the answer people can live with? The engine rules are pretty black and white they should be simple.
The weight rule is to help heavier kids have a better chance. I agree a good setup and driver will overcome the weight difference to a point.
I am doubting the weight rule will change from the feed back I have recieved.
The weight wont punish lighter kids (they will get more movable weight). With all the conversations I am leaning toward leaving the weight alone at 400 pounds.
All I really want to do with the rules is make them easier to enforce and clearify some rules. The add weight to the car was a suggestion for bigger kids not ready for a 600.
Thanks
Dave
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sph89
New Member
Posts: 19
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Post by sph89 on Oct 2, 2014 14:45:35 GMT -6
I would like to add Hoosier recommends leaving the right rear tire as sold to make the tire hardness testing easier to enforce. I realize several people say that is just to sell more tires but look at how you test tires for hardness. Our rules have no specific durometer for the RR tire. Just Hoosier RD2o. Rules do state "no tire pre/dope allowed". You may consider a durometer spec for your rules package. As for SSMC rules, not sure that we can get that added without a rule proposal...possibly could get added by the board under their "rules clarifications" which allows them to clarify a rule further without technically changing a rule.
Shawn Hulsey
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sph89
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Post by sph89 on Oct 2, 2014 15:31:17 GMT -6
I can understand the weight and dont disagree with that as we all roll across at at least 410 now from what I have seen. My boys are both 425 in the car with no lead As far as the adjustable shocks I feel we need to allow them. There is no advantage to not allowing them. Several cars already have them first off, secondly it saves you from having to carry multiple shocks to make adjustments. I totally agree with no cockpit adjustments. Having adjustable shocks saved me a ton of money traveling this year. I am able to tune my shocks between a high banked track and a flat track without owning several sets of shocks which in turn saved me money. They are allowed everywhere else I know of and will be allowed at US 50. There is no reason to handicap our club with a rule that does not match others...it just keeps others from racing with us from outside tracks. There needs to be a strong push for consistent weekly tech. I DO FEEL WILLY is 100% capable. I have known willy for my entire life and he has always been a completely stand up guy who is very sharp. Yes he made a mistake this year but he also caught it and fixed it while admitting he was wrong. He is honest and unbiased and you cant ask for much more. Mike Cromwell Owner/Operator US 50 Motorsports Park Club Member SSMC
1) This was discussed as a rule proposal for our class and increasing the weight was rejected. Selfishly it would benefit my driver who is heavier than most of the JR drivers and continuing to grow, but I agree with leaving the 400lb rule. It is consistent.
2) This was discussed as a rule proposal for our class and also rejected to allow adjustable shocks. It is a cost containment rule for our track, but I am mixed on this as their are advantages for the adjustable shocks; like traveling. Their is little upside to using them at our track, in my opinion, so it shouldn't make parents feel like they have to spend the additional dollars to be competitive.
3) As for tech: I too agree that Willy is very capable. He is unbiased. He is dependable. He is present nearly every race. Sure he made a "mistake", but everyone makes mistakes - he has learned from this I'm sure, and makes him a better tech guy. Honestly, we will have a big challenge finding someone to do this job and do it as consistently as Willy does. The situation we had recently was handled perfectly. Fairfield was willing to double check of the findings without having to be the "fox watching the chicken coop".
I suggest that if we want Willy to do a more detailed inspection like a random tear down several times per year of several top finishers, then we do that. Provide him the tools and a clear definition. All Jr cars should have to pay into a tech fund at the beginning of the season to cover his time for this. If anyone has disagreement with the procedure/findings, then we do exactly what was done by taking to Fairfield for verification - of course Fairfield should be compensated for this by the engine owner asking for the double check, but the engine must remain in the possession of a designated person and delivered to Fairfield. The engine owner is responsible for the costs for reassembly. I get the argument that I have heard before "my engine is built in CA and I have to send it across country to have my engine builder reassemble"...well, that is a price we pay for choosing a long distance builder and racing. No perfect solution, but we are doing a fairly good job. Unfortunately, there will always be low-life cheaters...it sucks.
I guess one really radical approach would be to have each Jr who is racing for the points fund, bring their engine to the first night. After the feature races, the oil is drained and the engines are removed and placed in a secured location until next week. Each engine is identified by a unique number. When you arrive each night, you randomly draw a number and you are issued that engine for the night. The specified oil is used prior to heat race, supplied by the car owner. If the engine drops dead, the car using that engine is responsible for getting it rebuilt that week by Fairlfield since they would be responsible for that cost if the engine was theirs anyway. This requires some coordination and oversight to manage, but would stop the bitching to some degree. The downside is that someone will cheat the engine while in their pits some way. I don't advocate this, but is one method.
Several years ago when Garrett was in Jr's there was some bellyaching going on. I can assure you that our engines were legal. Troy told a specific parent "come to our trailer well before the driver's meeting and select which of our engines you want to run, the one on the car or the spare in the trailer. I'll run the one off your car for the night". Not surprisingly he had no takers. As my kid is starting to get the confidence to push himself a little, we are hoping he ends up getting a checkered flag, or more! If we get some wins next season, I will offer what Troy offered if anyone starts to question our engines.
Shawn Hulsey
Shawn Hulsey
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sph89
New Member
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Post by sph89 on Oct 2, 2014 15:35:10 GMT -6
I agree with with Kevin. Why would you add more weight to a junior sprint. The Tulsa shoot out and all other tracks that I know of run 400 and have successfully for many years. Why 425 vs 435 or 450. I am not sure I see the reasoning it is not for safety. Is it to help give an advantage to the heavier kids and pentalize the lighter kids. Is it to slow the cars down. I am not sure it makes sense to add 30-60 pounds of weight of all different shapes and sizes to a car. If it 425 then I would believe cars would come in on average at 435. My suggestion would be to have a conversation with the other junior builders and get some input. Maybe even have a group of junior moms and dads around the country for a focus group for feedback on rule changes Just some thoughts Trevor 913-484-7424 A roundtable think tank is a good idea. If Dave put this together, I would offer to chair a conference call (I will coordinate the call and use my conf call number) if Dave would organize and set an agenda.
Shawn
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sph89
New Member
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Post by sph89 on Oct 2, 2014 15:39:06 GMT -6
I say leave the weight rule at 400. Why change it when we were running it my driver was 90-115# and was still at 405 full of fuel. Need to look at the engine rules more than anything I build some and there getting stupid on price before I spent 2200 on a briggs I would go run a 600 thats what we decided to do. Feel free to call me 918-955-4056 Kevin Battles KBR engines Pcr tech If anyone is spending $2,200 on a Jr engine, they are out of their mind. Put an engine claim rule in place like we have for the 600 classes. Use the price from Fairfield - I think it is $1,200 and some change. What are you going to do with that $2,200 engine, or any other engine you claim? If it is illegal, you can't run it either!
Shawn
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Post by wilmar28 on Oct 2, 2014 15:50:47 GMT -6
Your all a bunch of cheaters. LOL, Going to do some looking into this JR sprint thing.
Chris Wilson
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